Torrent abuse .is this right ?

[grabo1530]

Next door had a letter sent regarding disconnection, the standard one with sims 2 named as the copyrighted material, he looked at the torrent via mininova but did not download it nor enter it into his client ,when he queried it he was told he doesn’t  have to down load it to be caught, and cut off, he was told if  he clicks to  browse.(select a torrent from Mininova list) it will capture his IP address, and if the download I’m looking at is copy right material he will be cut off.

So let me get this right any copyrighted material can not be even looked at because krapoo have the right to assume further and  generate £30

No file sharing of any kind has been carried out at all ,so why do they have the right to do this ?

It seems a shame but its cheaper to pay 3rd parties to route your traffic annomanously through their servers then to keep paying £30 a pop to these thiefs. you also get faster speeds .

Any comments ?

[Fastethernet]

Well the torrent files stored at BitTorrent sites do not contain any copyrighted material and copyright infringement is a civil matter. So two things could be going on here, either KCOM have decided to start policing all download on their network (unlikely) or whoever you spoke to at KCOM wasn't particularly well informed. If KCOM were checking every visit to dubious web sites then surely they would simply block all problem sites before any alleged infringement could occur? Which then raises questions of censorship, Freedom of Speech and Human Rights, I think the communication chain has broken down here. Do you have anything in writing corroborating any of this?

Of course KCOM could be way ahead of the game and might be responding to this  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/15/berr_p2p_consultation_responses/ 

Although for some reason I would say today KCOM are more concerned about whether their hardware will continue to be supported since Nortel filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection yesterday.

[dylan]

<fastethernet got there quicker but Ill post anyway!> 

It is my understanding that Karoo are acting on the behalf of the copyright owner (or their agent) when sending you a letter about disconnection.

What the copyright owner does is seed a copy of Sims 2 themselves over bittorent (or more usually through a company they hire for this purpose) and when you connect to download (or perhaps try to upload to them) the copyright owner sends Karoo an email telling them something like:

"@ 19:23 GMT on 15th December 2008 IP address 218.32.22.3 illegally uploaded/downloaded a copy of Sims 2 with our server".

Thats when the law is broken.

Viewing a torrent on a website does not constitute breaking the law because the torrent file itself does not contain any copyrighted material.

I suggest that your friend (perhaps accidently) downloaded the Sims 2 because otherwise the copyright owner would not know about it.  The copyright owner does not have access to the Mininova web access logs, and I doubt if Karoo can be bothered to police every person who visits the Minninova network.  Even if they could be bothered there would be no point as your friend never broke the law.

[Cheesychip1]

That is not right. If i were you get some proper legal advice (or tell your nieghbor to) but the copyrighted material HAS to be infringed by downloading it or somthing, simply looking at such matirial is not illegal.

I have known people to have gotten the same letter but on reading the contract they then had to sign it implied they were not to download to infringe. Silly nonsensical stuff here, miniova or w/e the site is would have to give away search details TO karoo or other sevice prioviders infomation if they were to know what you had searched or looked for and from which IP. (I happen to know that such torrent sites are in a several year legal battle with goverments and film companies, over their content and their need to share it) Otherwise that means that KC are illegaly tapping into certain sites to get that infomation.

HOWEVER if it is a search through google you have been gotten for thats different because in late 2008 goggle were accused and fined of selling information on to 3rd party people about what people had searched, resulting in spam about holidays etc etc if thats what you had looked for.

Sounds to me though as if whoever you spoke to at KC was bent over at the time and his/her arse started talking. they must have been grossly misinformed. The ISP has to have a tracker through its input sever to say that you actually downloaded the item. THEN the company that was infringed will have acess to such trackers and download info and will search through it THEN inform the ISP to take action. (or at least thats how it should happen though i am aware that changes were made late 2008 to do with how ISP's deal with offenders)

Would be interested to hear how this panned out though, for as far as I can tell your nieghbor did nothiing illegal or worth a disconnection.

[dave666]

When I have talked to karoo about torrents they have always told me there is nothing they can do if you download them but they can if you upload. Downloading is not sharing so basisaly you are not breaking the rules or law.
Just dont upload.

[grabo1530]

He tried several times to argue his case even asking for copies of any logs showing what content and amounts of the alleged copyrighted material  had been downloaded.he wrote asking for this stating  that if they couldnt supply it then to return his £30 back.
he got an exact  copy of the 1st letter that didnt prove anything.when he rang again he was told that because he signed the letter (which he had to to get re connected )he had if fact agreed to the content.

I believe that the abuse team are on bonus  abuse privacy & take advantage of people not having any other choice of internet supplier

I am of the same opinion as cheesychip but what can you do ?

He has now taken out a £65 per year option for  anonymous privicy and will hammer torrents to get value for money

[Fr34ky]

I think he was daft to pay the fine.

If it was me and i knew i hadn't downloaded it...no way on this earth would i have paid the £30, i would have told them to jump. If they want it paying then the must provide me with adequite proof.

Sorry but that is my opinion!!!

[Cheesychip1]

grabo1530 ye he shouldnt have paid by signing he agreed that he has commited the offence... a real shame as that really shouldn't have happened. But lots of ways to get around the fine and accusations even if he had downloaded really depends on the ISP abuse manager's mood. But that really is wrong what they did to your neighbour it should not have happened, they have misrepresented their accusations and ARE required by law to show any evidence they have when asking for money as compensation or (in this case) reconnection.

I agree with Fr34ky i would have held out until they reconnect me and demand compensation. The problem is they had him by the balls when they took away his net that he probably needed urgently for work. Another example of Krapoo exploiting there customers forced to use their "service" by location restrictions. 

He has now taken out a £65 per year option for  anonymous privicy and will hammer torrents to get value for money

Is this from karoo or 3rd person software? please tell me more

[bashdabish]

I would just like to add some facts.

A 3rd party reports the IP address involded in sharing a specific file to the Karoo abuse team. They then look at the owner of that specific IP and act accordingly as requested by the 3rd party (copyright holder or another company acting on behalf).

A reconnection fee (£30) is not charged unless it is the 2nd or 3rd offence of a specific nature.

[grabo1530]

I would just like to add some facts.

A 3rd party reports the IP address involded in sharing a specific file to the Karoo abuse team. They then look at the owner of that specific IP and act accordingly as requested by the 3rd party (copyright holder or another company acting on behalf).

A reconnection fee (£30) is not charged unless it is the 2nd or 3rd offence of a specific nature.

2 other persons including my son who lives elseware was caught downloading films (lionsgate ) just after xmas and were imediatly cut of .they both had to pay £30 for re connection !I know for certain that it was my sons first time because I only set his pc internet up day before xmas eve. 
I again agree with cheesy it depends on the krapoo workers attitude and nature,and i really do think how much bonus is at stake.
lets face it they are a piss poor outfit who dont have the cash to invest in decent upgrades,they need to generate cash from someware.

[MarkF]

What the copyright owner does is seed a copy of Sims 2 themselves over bittorent (or more usually through a company they hire for this purpose) and when you connect to download (or perhaps try to upload to them) the copyright owner sends Karoo an email telling them something like:

"@ 19:23 GMT on 15th December 2008 IP address 218.32.22.3 illegally uploaded/downloaded a copy of Sims 2 with our server".

Has the legality of this been tested, it seems the companies themselves or their reps are soliciting Copyright violations by making an illegal invitation to treat?

[Cheesychip1]

Thats actually incorrect they use somthing called "trackers" which just stick to the download and allow them to be tracked simple. Trackers are set up and attached to the torrent by the torrent websites... however as the torrents move from piratebay for example to isohunt it will then have 2 trackers... and these trackers can be traced by not just the site that made the tracker. (lil bit more complex buts thats the readers digest version)

Trackers trace (for the site) how many seeds/leechers/peers there are and give total download figures and other usfull data. Same with pretty much anything you download. I guess you could say thay are a bit like cookies.

It is possible of course that the makers of sims2 or whatever upload the torrent themselves but honestly HIGHLY unlikely... they pay alot of money to 3rd party companies to catch downloaders and uploaders. These people work on commision... NOT the ISP's (but who knows karoo might lol cheap skates)